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Talk:King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men
Nomenclature Joffrey is the one currently wearing the crown, so although his position is disputed, we should refer to him as King for the time being. Both Renly Baratheon and Stannis Baratheon want to be King, but it's too soon to refer to them as kins already. - regards, KS - KarinS 11:58, June 21, 2011 (UTC) Rename article The term "King on the Iron Throne" is a nickname for Joffrey used in the books and never in-universe. Also, it is not the formal title of the King. The article should be renamed "King of Westeros" and each title the King holds should merit its own article, just like there's an article for "Lord of Winterfell" and "Warden of the North" and "Lord Paramount of the North".--Gonzalo84 19:42, June 10, 2012 (UTC) :He's not "King of Westeros" they never claimed the whole continent (in theory), and for many years Dorne was independent. Nor is he "King of the Seven Kingdoms". The in-universe title is "King of the Andals and the First Men (and the Rhoynar)". This reflects common medieval practice. The concept of "England" or "France", did not exist on an abstract level; the modern concept of a "nation-state" hadn't been developed yet. You had the "King of the English", "King of the Franks", etc. It was based on peoples, not abstract concepts of "the State". Yes it should not have an article.--The Dragon Demands 01:38, June 11, 2012 (UTC) ::Indeed. Though Stannis lays claim to "the Iron Throne of Westeros", not to the "Kingship of the Andals and the First Men" or "Lordship of the Seven Kingdoms". In any case the article should be split.--Gonzalo84 02:57, June 11, 2012 (UTC) ::The term 'King on the Iron Throne' is used in official HBO documents, including the Viewer's Guide, which is a viable source for the wiki. The term 'King of Westeros' is inaccurate as the Seven Kingdoms do not cover all of Westers (though it's near enough for common usage, as Stannis did). 'King of the Seven Kingdoms' is never used in either book or series, although it is descriptively accurate. The correct term should therefore be 'King on the Iron Throne' or 'King of the Andals and the First Men' (noting again that the Rhoynar and their part of the title have not been mentioned in the series, and should not be included).--Werthead 18:34, June 17, 2012 (UTC) :::So far the viewers guide has referred just to Joffrey as the King on the Iron Throne... not Robert or the prior kings. "King on the Iron Throne", "King in the Narrow Sea", "Queen Across the Sea" are just aliases, not titles. I was also uncomfortable with "King of Westeros" so I'll move it to "King of the Andals and the First Men".--Gonzalo84 01:22, June 18, 2012 (UTC) :::Thank you, I agree.--The Dragon Demands 15:20, June 18, 2012 (UTC) Rhoynar I suspect that, in later seasons, they may retroactively establish "and the Rhoynar" when they introduce characters from Dorne. I.e. an episode will air in which they simply state "King of the Andals and the First Men and the Rhoynar". Then again, they weren't kings of the Rhoynar as well until about a hundred years ago so...yeah...--The Dragon Demands 15:22, June 18, 2012 (UTC) :I think the show will explain that the King of Westeros is not "King of the Rhoynar" because the Dornishmen were never conquered and remain ruled by their Prince and Dornish law.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:04, June 18, 2013 (UTC) Missing Kings WARNING: there are minor book spoilers in this topic regarding the line of the Targaryen monarchs. If it's really important for you to know who was the King on the Iron Throne 150 years prior to Game of Thrones, then do not read this. First of all, we all know that Jaehaerys II did not make it into the show. I understand it, although I think it takes away from Aegon V's character, who is one of my favorite kings in the whole series. However, more kings other than Mad Aerys' father are missing: King Aenys (37-42), the successor of Aegon the Conqueror; King Jaehaerys I the Conciliator (48-103), possibly the most important king of House Targaryen, successor of Maegor; Jaehaerys' son, King Viserys I (103-129), who has most certainly made it into the adaptation; and King Daeron I the Young Dragon, vanquisher of Dorne and who will most likely be introduced later on, successor of Aegon III. I do not think adding them to this page would do anyone harm - indeed it will prevent history enthusiasts from going into the book wiki and accidentally spoiling themselves (such as I nearly did). :We can only make articles on kings who were at least mentioned in the TV series. As of the end of Season 3, the only missing kings are: Aenys I, Viserys I, Daeron I, and Jaehaerys II - though they said they intentionally cut Jaehaerys II. Aenys was a weakling who would only be mentioned in the context of Maegor the Cruel, but hopefully a future "complete guide to Westeros" devoted to Maegor will address that. Meanwhile, I'm confident that Daeron I will be mentioned when Dorne gets introduced. Viserys I might be mentioned if they ever explain what the Dance of Dragons was.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:13, June 3, 2013 (UTC) Well I was hoping that the Season 3 Histories & Lore featurettes would give more info, but no such luck. Jaehaerys II being officially cut from the TV continuity, there are only three remaining kings not yet established in TV canon: *Aenys I - weakling older brother of Maegor the Cruel. They have at least stated that Maegor was Aegon I's son. *Viserys I - they've mentioned his son Aegon II and his daughter Rhaenyra, but they haven't mentioned him by name and it's not enough to establish him within the TV continuity. *Daeron I - The Young Dragon, conqueror of Dorne. I suspect he will probably be mentioned in Season 4 once Dorne is introduced. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:47, February 20, 2014 (UTC) Also we've finally gotten some general info on who the Targaryen queens were, from the World of Ice and Fire app information. Due to the Targaryens' extreme inbreeding, it's interesting to know the few times that other bloodlines entered into the royal line. The full list goes like this: Aegon and his sisters were the fifth generation of Targaryens born on Dragonstone, the seventh to rule there. Rulers of Dragonstone were: *Aenar the Exile - led the Targaryen exile to Dragonstone just before the Doom of Valyria, along with his son Gaemon and his daughter Daena the Dreamer, whose prophetic dreams encouraged their exodus. *Gaemon the Glorious - wed to sister-wife Daena the Dreamer *Aegon and Elaena - a brother-sister pair who co-ruled as a wedded couple *Maegon - son of Aegon and Elaena. Wife unknown. *Aelix, Baelon, and Daemon - three sons of Maegon. Aelix and Baelon ruled in turn but both died without issue, and were succeeded by Daemon. *Aerion - son of Daemon and an unknown wife. Wed to Velena Velaryon. Father of Aegon the Conqueror, Visenya, and Rhaenys; widely considered to have fathered bastard son Orys Baratheon (mother as yet unrevealed). Afterwards, if no sister was available in the current generation, Targaryen men would frequently marry women from House Velaryon, because they were at least other Valyrians. Also everyone descended from Aegon was at least part-Velaryon so the Velaryons would all be cousins to some degree (though I don't know if younger Targaryen daughter later married into the Velaryons, so that later Velaryons descend from Aegon I). *Aegon I - married to sister-wives Visenya and Rhaenys. Visenya's only child was Maegor, while Rhaenys had one son Aenys and several daughters. *Aenys I - married to Alyssa Velaryon. Born after the Conquest, in 7 AL. Father of Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena. *Maegor - somehow succeeded ahead of Jaehaerys. Forcibly married two of Aenys I's sisters, then a woman named Jeyne Westerling; had eight wives in his lifetime, sometimes with multiple wives at the same time, but died without issue. Killed some of his wives, may have married/killed Rhaena. *Jaehaerys I - married to Alysanne, with whom he had nine children. The generation between Jaehaerys and his grandson Viserys I is one of our biggest gaps in knowledge. He had one son named Aemon and another named Baelon. Aemon married Jacelyn Baratheon and their daughter was Rhaenys, the "Queen Who Never Was". Rhaenys married Corlys Velaryon (world-famous navigator and explorer), and had two children: Laenor and Laena Velaryon. After Rhaenys died two bastard brothers were legitimized: Addam of Hull and Alyn of Hull. Unknown if the Addam and Alyn Velaryon were actually the bastards of Corlys himself. *Viserys I - grandson of Jaehaerys I through unknown path. Married twice. First marriage was to a woman of House Arryn, producing only Rhaenyra Targaryen. Second marriage to Alicent Hightower produced Aegon II, Aemond One-Eye, and Daeron the Daring. Also daughter Helaena, who married Aegon II. **Meanwhile, Viserys I's younger brother Daemon married Laena Velaryon, while Rhaenyra married Laenor Velaryon. Rhaenyra had three sons with Laenor before he died, though some suspect they were all bastards (irrelevant as they all died without issue). Daemon had twin daughters with Laena: Baela Targaryen and Rhaena Targaryen, called "Rhaena of Pentos" because she grew up there during her father's campaigns. Baela and Rhaena were thus the granddaughters of Rhaenys, great-great-granddaughters of Jaehaerys I (through the female line). *Rhaenyra remarried to her uncle Daemon, producing Aegon III and Viserys II. **All three of Rhaenyra's older sons died without issue. Addam Velaryon died without issue, though Alyn Velaryon survived. Fate of Baela and Rhaena unknown (also, fates of any possible cousins resulting from Jaehaerys having nine children are unknown). *Aegon II usurped Rhaenyra, leading to the Dance of the Dragons. **Aegon II had three small children with his sister-wife Helaena: twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaerya, and Maelor. Jaehaerys, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron all died during the Dance. Three year old Maelor presumably died because by the end of the two year long war, Aegon II had no male heirs. Aemond fathered a bastard child with Alys Rivers (heavily pregnant when he died), but fate unknown. Aegon II later died at the end of the Dance. *Aegon III - married Aegon II's daughter Jaehaerya to end the civil war, but she died without issue - ending the bloodline of Aegon II. Aegon III then remarried to Daenaera Velaryon, mother of his five children. *Daeron I was married but died without issue. *Baelor the Blessed refused to marry any of his three sisters and thus died without issue. **Of the "Maidens in the Tower", Rhaena became a septa and had no children; Elaena married three times (twice for politics, once for love) and had seven trueborn children, but later had an affair with Alyn Velaryon which produced two bastards, Jon and Jeyne Waters. Daena, meanwhile, had an affair with her first cousin Aegon IV which produced Daemon Blackfyre. *Viserys II - son of Rhaenyra, wife unknown. Father of Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragon-knight. *Aegon IV - Married to Naerys but had vast number of bastards, and nine official mistresses. Legitimized four bastards on his deathbed due to their noble blood: three sons (including Daemon Blackfyre) and one daughter. *Daeron II - son of Aegon IV though possibly fathered by Aemon. Married Myriah Martell to secure a political alliance with Dorne. After Daeron II, the text doesn't mention who the wives of Targaryen kings were until Aerys II's sister-wife Rhaella (well, Aerys I married his sister Aelinor, but they died childless). So the queens of Maekar, Aegon V, and Jaehaerys II are unknown. Also gets complicated with all of the distant minor Targaryen cousins and such (Martin outright stated that Aerion Brightflame probably had bastard children). Well, more info as it comes. But it will be good to finally figure out that mysterious generation of Jaehaerys I's children.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:25, March 30, 2014 (UTC) Update Season 4 Good, as expected "Lives of Four Kings" appeared at Joffrey's wedding, establishing Daeron I for the first time anywhere, and also Aegon IV and Daeron II in dialogue for the first time. At this point, therefore, the only kings not established within the TV continuity on any level whatsoever are Aenys I and Viserys I. Though maybe Viserys I is implied because there is a Viserys II, but no, that's too much. I do hope we get more mentions of him later, as we do have mentions of Rhaenyra and Aegon II. Wait let's see now...we've got kings established in dialogue, or king's established in secondary stuff like screenshots or animated featurettes: *Aegon I - mentioned in dialogue *Maegor the Cruel - mentioned in dialogue *Jaehaerys I - mentioned in dialogue *Viserys I - not mentioned in anything *Aegon II - mentioned in dialogue (not by name, but enough in context) **Rhaenyra - mentioned in dialogue, by name *Aegon III - mentioned in dialogue (not by name, but in context of his mother) *Daeron I - mentioned by name *Baelor the Blessed - mentioned by name *Viserys II - established through on-screen text *Aegon IV - mentioned by name *Daeron II - mentioned by name *Aerys I - established through on-screen text *Maekar - mentioned in dialogue *Aegon V - mentioned in dialogue *Jaehaerys II - intentionally omitted *Aerys II - the Mad King So let's see here... Viserys II and Aerys I are only established by on-screen text but we took it as enough to keep articles on them. Viserys I and Aenys I still haven't been introduced into the continuity at all. Part of me worries that they might cut Aenys I entirely just to simplify it to Maekar, even though I don't see any real reason to do that (they barely mention Maegor on screen, why simplify something only book fans would recognize?) -- The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:01, April 14, 2014 (UTC) Aenys I and Viserys I Every king has been accounted for except for Aenys I and Viserys I (and they explicitly stated that they cut Jaehaerys II out of the TV continuity). I was looking over screencaps of the "Lineages" book again, and found that there was actually mention of Aenys I...not much, prop-books seem semi-canon, but it's the same justification we used for including Daemon Blackfyre, as well as Aegon IV (before Aegon the Unworthy was established by Season 4 dialogue). So I wrote up a page on Aenys Targaryen. That leaves only Viserys I before we have a complete lineage stretching from Aegon I to Daenerys. ...I propose making an article on Viserys I anyway. We do have indirect evidence of him: *Rhaenyra has been mentioned on-screen and that her brother fed her to his dragon. *In Season 1, Viserys is explicitly introduced in dialogue as "Viserys, the third of his name"...so while they could (absurdly but you never know) introduce a change and make Rhaenyra Jaehaerys I's daughter or something, that would introduce a retcon about there being TWO kings named Viserys before. The Lineages book already established Viserys II, father of Aegon IV. If this was just information from an on-screen book I might rule it out (if we only had "Viserys II" mentioned in a book once), but the fact that Viserys is introduced as the Viserys the Third in on-screen dialogue makes it more official to me. Mostly just a placeholder, but all we need is Viserys I and we have a complete list.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:58, July 12, 2014 (UTC) As of the Season 4 Histories & Lore Mentioned in TV series dialogue: *Aegon I *Maegor *Jaehaerys I *Aegon II (not by name)/Rhaenyra *Aegon III (not by name, but "Rhaenyra was fed to her dragon while her son watched") *Daeron I the Young Dragon *Baelor the Blessed *Aegon IV the Unworthy *Daeron II the Good *Maekar *Aegon V the Unlikely *Aerys II the Mad Leaving Histories & Lore and other "ancillary" material (prop books and such): *Viserys I - finally at least mentioned in the Season 4 Histories & Lore, though not by name, just as "the father of Aegon II and Rhaenyra" etc. Also the main TV series mentions "Viserys III" implying there were two others. Aegon III *Viserys II - similar to Viserys I, though he does prominently appear in the prop lineage book (even though not everything in that is canon). *Aerys I - appears in the lineages book, though they call the Mad King "Aerys II" establishing that there must have been an "Aerys I". The only one they haven't really alluded to on any level is Aenys. At least with the Viserys and Aerys kings they implied that they existed. Yes he appears in the lineages book but it's not always canon. Well, I'm sure Season 5's Histories & Lore will explain more about Aenys and Maegor and the Faith Militant uprising. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:42, February 25, 2015 (UTC) The Children I just noticed that in "The Children", when Missandei introduces Fennesz to Dany, she does so by the full title from the book ("Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men"). -- SaganamiFan (talk) 14:47, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :I asked David J. Peterson, as the line was in Valyrian, but he said that's what was written in the script he was handed, it wasn't a mistake due to miscommunication or something. The show has simply contradicted itself. "First of His Name" has Tommen being crowned "King of the Andals and the First Men" during his coronation...when Oberyn Martell is STANDING right there in front of him (and he's a Dornishman/Rhoynar descendant). Then suddenly they include the proper title "of the Rhoynar"? Even Westeros.org pointed out that this is the first time they've used the full book title. Both episodes were written by Benioff and Weiss so this isn't a miscommunication between them and another writer like Cogman or something. :This is one of those things we need to directly ask the writers about. Not that we have access to them at present...but the next time WinterIsComing.net does a Q&A with Cogman we really need to submit this to figure out which version it is in the TV show continuity's canon: it can't be both.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:27, July 4, 2014 (UTC) King of the Andals and the First Men... and no Rhoynar Perhaps it's just a theory, but according to the TV series it's also possible, as explanation, the the Rhoynar were deleted from the title because Dorne started a period of isolation after Robert Baratheon occupied the throne. Prince Doran and Prince Oberyn blamed him for the death of Elia Martell, their sister, and her children, their niece and nephew. --Exodianecross (talk) 20:26, July 8, 2014 (UTC) :That's what we don't know at the moment; why would Daenerys call herself "Queen of the Rhoynar"? I doubt Doren's isolation would be any reason to drop the title after Robert's Rebellion.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:30, July 8, 2014 (UTC) ::It's just a explanation for the series! For example Bronn was in the series the commander of the Gold Cloaks, but never in the books! It was a condensation, like many things! And the producers left the Rhoynar out because the haven't appeared till Oberyn, Ellaria and the other Dornishmen. So we are still searching for so many differences ;)! --Exodianecross (talk) 00:41, July 9, 2014 (UTC) :::This is not remotely comparable to such a minor difference as Bronn being commander of the City Watch. For three seasons the TV series omitted "of the Rhoynar", even omitted it during Tommen's coronation, when Oberyn Martell is standing right there....and then suddenly reintroduced it with Daenerys in the Season 4 finale.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:51, July 9, 2014 (UTC) ::::I totally agree! But I also know it's impossible to create a series after books like 1:1! And the producers have made good condenses, changes, etc. But this wasn't one! --Exodianecross (talk) 01:13, July 9, 2014 (UTC) :::::...this isn't a "condensation". This is simply an error. To be clear: I don't mind if they later state "saying 'Rhoynar' in the Season 4 finale was a mistake; that shouldn't exist in the TV continuity"....but right now, we're getting conflicting messages. :::::They are beholden to the fanbase who they tried so hard to win over back in Season 1. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:21, July 9, 2014 (UTC) Sorry, you've misunderstood me, I didn't want to say that to left the Rhoynar out was a condensation. A condensation is like that what they've done with Loras, he took over the parts of his two brothers! We all know that the Rhoynar weren't mentioned because they haven't appeared until season 4 and the producers had the intention not to confuse the viewers, because they haven't done the series just for the readers. --Exodianecross (talk) 08:55, July 9, 2014 (UTC) "Of the Rhoynar" revisited "Of the Rhoynar" was an easter egg for book readers... those not obsessed with consistency, anyway. Cogman said so in an interview (the Game of Owns one from that year, maybe?). —ArticXiongmao (talk) 00:00, September 26, 2015 (UTC) ....really??! I mean I thought I listened to all of the Cogman interviews and took notes. Can you find a source for that? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:02, September 26, 2015 (UTC) It would have to be either the 2014 Cogman GOO episode or... didn't he do an interview for another podcast, too? I don't know. Can't quite recall. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 09:39, September 26, 2015 (UTC) ...Well I'm working on other stuff now and don't have time to search if we're not even sure where to search. However, if you can check Cogman's comments on your own, yes, please present any relevant info back here, and we'll make note of it. Otherwise GRRM himself basically described it as if the "of the Rhoynar" title was officially changed in the TV continuity - that is, as a very conscious and intentional decision and not mere omission, etc. etc. My writeup on the article is done now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:38, September 26, 2015 (UTC) Not my job to correct your mistakes, especially if it involves listening to an hour or two of podcasts. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 20:53, September 26, 2015 (UTC) ..."my mistakes"? You aren't even certain that Cogman said this and have no citations. Also it happened in the Season 4 finale, not the episode Cogman wrote. You have to do the legwork on points you want to introduce. No, wait, let's focus on this: you claim that a Cogman interview, you can't remember which one, mentioned why the title said "of the Rhoynar" at some point. You say you don't even recall definitively if he actually said this or if you're remembering it wrong. Nor was this a publicly released DVD commentary which I could rationally be expected to have listened to. As it happens, I said I did listen to the Cogman Game of Owns podcast appearance, and at the time I made no note of mentioning the Rhoynar (though there's always a chance I missed it). So how can you plausibly call this "correcting your mistakes"? How is this my mistake? It's your mistake for not even remembering which podcast it was and for not incorporating it into the wiki when you could. Do I have to do all of your work for you?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:58, September 26, 2015 (UTC) Now it's "my work" to do that, huh? You're a funny guy. I may get around to it sometime, if I want to listen to those interviews again. This is not a job; though, considering how obsessive you get with the wiki, I'm pretty sure you sometimes forget that little fact. Anyway; I know what I heard, I just don't know where (I didn't say I may have remembered it wrong), so I'll leave you some suggestions, if you want to do "my work"; it would have to be either in the Game of Owns podcast or the other podcast I listen to which also interviewed Cogman, A Cast of Kings. Or maybe it was a later interview, if the quote comes from the finale. Have fun. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 21:14, September 26, 2015 (UTC) ...wait a minute...you didn't say the name of the other podcast before and I was more annoyed that you wanted me to find it "out there" somewhere. It couldn't have been in Game of Owns because they interviews Cogman after his episode (number six) but before the finale aired (number ten) in which that line occurred. This narrows things down. I may have missed the "A Cast of Kings" interview entirely. Oh that changes things, then: yes I will get to listening to this ACOK podcast later today (listening to more than one hour of podcast just seemed like a bit much to ask).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:23, September 26, 2015 (UTC) Title, Season 6 (weeping in a pile of self-loathing) What the hell do we call the page now, eh?! Screw it. Screw it all. Damn them. By the...something...of the...some god... I don't know anymore. I'm going to go get some fast food and watch cartoons or something. (throws glass against wall in impotent rage). God help us all.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:32, April 25, 2016 (UTC) Define claimant (Lannister bias) This article seems to be highly biased in favor of the Lannisters. Does sitting on the Iron Throne magically make you King/Queen? No. Cersei claims she's Queen, yet pretty much everyone outside of the Red Keep doesn't recognize her as one. Yet Dany has control of the Reach, Dorne, and maybe the Stormlands. Cersei doesn't have anything outside of King's Landing at this point. (remember she kin slayed Kevan and Lancel Lannister and Tryion is on Dany side) Might as well just call herself Queen of King's Landing. We should recognize everyone who called themselves King/Queen of the Andals and the First Men as legit and have a little section dealing with how many people actually recognized them as such. I don't think just because someone sits on the Iron Throne is a good indicator of who is legit monarch. Simpsonsfan1992 (talk) 18:22, July 11, 2016 (UTC) Cersei is literally sitting on the Iron Throne - that makes her the Queen for however long she can keep hold of it. I think it is going to be a very short period but until then, I think it makes her Queen. Next season, this page will be updated showing her as a usuper and whoever wins, will be shown as the new ruler. I hear what you are saying but what would you change the wording to? Regards Ser Shield McShield (talk) 18:30, July 11, 2016 (UTC) We can argue about legitimacy, but what doesn't change is that the person who sits on the Iron Throne is the King/Queen of the Andals and the First Men (or the Hand, of course). Even if she's not rightful, even if many of the countries are in open rebellion, she is still the current Queen. Were Joffrey or Tommen not Kings? This same logic should apply to them as well. They were unable to control many of the regions, and they were not truly Baratheons, even if they legally were. This is just my opinion, of course. Reddyredcp (talk) 18:32, July 11, 2016 (UTC) Legitimacy is a subjective term. Whoever sits the Throne is the King, and whoever claims it without holding it is a claimant. Regardless of legitimacy or righfulness. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:11, July 11, 2016 (UTC) :What source do you have that says anyone who sits on the Iron Throne is King/Queen? That's not true at all considering there have been people, like Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister who sat on the Iron Throne and they were not King. So what would happen if the Iron Throne melted? Would nobody be King/Queen anymore? This seems highly simplistic view of society. As I stated before this article is highly biased towards the Lannisters. Cersei is Queen of the Red Keep. Outside, the people of King's Landing want to kill her for killing High Sparrow, the Tyrell army will block off all food from the city, and the Westerlands might not even side with her after killing Kevan and Lancel and with Tyrion now Hand of the Queen of Dany. I could declare myself King of the United States of America today, but that won't make me so in the eyes of everyone else. I think the article should be as neutral as possible towards ALL SIDES. For crying out load the article previously stated Cersei had three kids with Robert, when she only had one. The pro-Lannister bias isn't that hard to spot. Simpsonsfan1992 (talk) 01:53, July 12, 2016 (UTC) ::Oh boy, I was being metaphorical so relax. Obviously the Hands of the King sitting on the throne are not kings. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:12, July 12, 2016 (UTC) Whether or not to treat Cersei as a "rival claimant": I strongly anticipate that Season 7 might shift to retroactively consider Daenerys the rightful queen. However a lot of this is simply due to continuity of her armies physically controlling King's Landing, given that they were Tommen's and Joffrey's armies at first. She's got no damned right to the Iron Throne at all of course, and half the realm just seceded yet again in disgust at her. So we'll see where this goes. All is tentative.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:17, July 12, 2016 (UTC) :Simpsonsfan1992: You do realize that Cersei is going to frame Lancel (and through him, the Faith Militant) for the destruction, right? At this point in the show, no one realizes that Cersei ordered the Great Sept destroyed. All they know is that it blew-up with wildfire. Hell, she might even say that the unstable wildfire left by the Mad King blew-up on its own. But your assumption that the people in King's Landing are already blaming her for the destruction is premature. :In regards to Cersei's kids, she did have three (actually) four lawful children with Robert. We all know that to be a lie but the people in the show do not know that - they might think that but it has never actually been proven. :Also, I don't understand this "pro-Lannister bias" you keep saying. You're writing like all of us somehow support Cersei in this fictional universe. None of us is claiming that Cersei is lawfully on the throne by inheritance - we are claiming that she has seized the throne by conquest since she actually sits on it with the Lannister forces in King's Landing at her command. There is the actual rule of "Right of Conquest" in this universe - like when Theon captured Winterfell. He did not have a right to Winterfell but while he was there, he was considered the Lord of Winterfell. Right now, Cersei has seized the Iron Throne and she is the Queen until she is removed from office - forcefully or otherwise. If Cersei can somehow beat the odds and fight off all the forces coming for her, she will stay the Queen since no one has the ability to remove her. :My thought is that Cersei's reign will be short and she will be called the "False Queen" when she is removed from office - but until then, let's not skip forward to the end. Plus, the show has a tendency to surprise all of us so let's see what happens. :Regards Ser Shield McShield (talk) 02:39, July 12, 2016 (UTC) Season 7 Well, so far, they've switched back to consistently using "Andals and the First Men" with no Rhoynar: *Episodes 1 to 3, Cersei is introduced without "Rhoynar" and even her letter to Jon is written this way. *Episode 3, Daenerys's introduction to Jon. No Rhoynar. Damn them.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:27, August 1, 2017 (UTC) :I don't get it. Dorne is fully in the show. The Rhoynar have been mentioned before. I suppose it sort of makes sense with Cersei not being crowned as Queen of the ... Rhoynar ..., but Daenerys was called the Queen of the Rhoynar previously. Another thing: the title of Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. What's up with that? Is there something wrong with Lady Regnant of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm or something? I understood the case for Cersei using such a title... she's renamed/invented titles before, in the books anyway... But what about Daenerys? Is it... jealousy, or something? Not sure. A shame that minor details like this are being overlooked. Reddyredcp (talk) 22:37, August 1, 2017 (UTC) 'Cersei has legal right to the Throne beyond "right of conquest"' The end of this article claims that Cersei doesn't have any legal claim to the Iron Throne beyond right of conquest, but that's actually not technically true. With Tommen's death and the legal Baratheon line extinct, barring a Targaryen restoration and still treating the Baratheons as the legal royal house, the crown would pass to the closest living relative to the Baratheon line. I found this on Reddit, I'll link it so you guys can read the thread, but here's the quote I'm concerned with: "Robert's line ending, the rule of succession have to find a living heir. To do so, it will go back up and then down... Robert (dead) had 2 brothers who are now both dead (Stannis is presumed dead), Renly had no children and Stannis let her only child be killed. Going back up the tree, we find that Robert is the son of Steffon (dead) who is the ONLY son of Lyonel (dead) who had a brother Harbert who died without children. Going back up, Lyonel is the son of Symon (dead) who is the ONLY son of another Lyonel (dead)who had 2 brothers (both dead obviously). One of Lyonel's brother had a son who is dead without children. So going back up again. Lyonel was the son of Arion who had 2 brothers and 3 sisters. Andren, Tancred died without children, Sarya married a Tully (no children), Elyanna married Mathin Lannister and Lyria married into House Crakehall... Elyanna is the oldest sister so, in effect, someone inside house Lannister should be the next king. Mathin Lannister being the High Lord of House Lannister who was the father of Jason Lannister, his heir was Demon Lannister, who was the father of Gerold Lannister, father of Tytos Lannister who was the father of Tywin. Tywin being dead, he has two heirs, Jamie and Tyrion... So by all acount, the rightful heir to the Throne would be Jamie Lannister but since he is a King's Guard, by default the rightful heir is Tyrion Lannister..." End quote. Now Tyrion is currently serving as Daenerys Targaryen's Hand of the Queen, and is in exile, wanted and sentenced to death for regicide, by all accounts a traitor. Granted, Cersei bombed the Sept of Baelor and killed the sitting queen consort, so maybe succession overrides all previous crimes by Westerosi law. That said, if we consider Tyrion inelligible for his being found guilty in the assassination of King Joffrey and his serving as hand to a foreign usurper, that leaves one living Lannister still elligible for the Throne: Cersei Lannister. Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and right of conquest has nothing to do with it. Link to the Reddit page: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3omljf/s5_what_happens_if_tommen_dies/cvz5qwp/ Should Daenerys be added to the list of monarchs? Technically her claim to the title was undisputed for the very brief time between the Battle of King's Landing and her assassination, and she had the backing of most of the Seven Kingdoms. But I'm fine with her remaining in the claimant list, so long as there's a clearly explained reason for that. - Linneris (talk) 15:42, May 20, 2019 (UTC) Even if it was for less than a day, she should be. She was de-facto the queen. I don't know how long she stayed alive after the battle. MatthewOne (talk) 15:45, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *I agree, she became the de facto once Cersei died. It can be further evidenced by Gendry's legitimization not being contested and seemingly undisputed ascendance to Lord of Storm's End--Vitus InfinitusTalk 15:48, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *:The North declared independence, so the fact they didn't contest doesn't mean anything. Ythlev (talk) 17:38, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *::The North didn't declared independence formally until she died, when Bran accepted Sansa's petition. And Jon, as a King in the North, gave the North and the Valley to Daenerys in the season 7.--Mortimercio (talk) 17:52, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *::: I thought Robb did? Even if not, I don't think the North represents the Seven Kingdoms well because it is a rebel force. Ythlev (talk) 18:21, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *::::Yes, Robb did it. And then he was defeated and the North returned to the Seven Kingdoms under the Baratheons (represented by the Boltons). And then, some years later, the Starks defeated the Boltons and the independence of the North was restored. And then Jon, the King in the North, handed over the northern sovereignty to Daenerys and became Warden of the North, so the North returned to the Seven Kingdoms under Daenerys.--Mortimercio (talk) 18:27, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *Yes. We can see that the ash fell very heavily over Drogon so for all we knew, it may have been several hours or days. Tyrion was also in his cell for days, if I remember correctly. Evremonde (talk) 16:03, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *'No'. She only briefly ''touches the Iron Throne. She does not sit in it, she does not go through a formal coronation, she "rules undisputed" for a period of time between Cersei's death and her own but that timespan would have been limited probably less than an hour (considering she died moments after first entering the Throne Room). I would say that a major part of her character arc was that she in fact ''never did ''sit the Iron Throne and did not achieve her goal. Pelledrine (talk) 17:30, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *You don't have to sit on a throne or be formally crowned just to be a king. That entire assumption is baseless and centred around false fantasy stories with fairytale coronations. Edward VIII never had a coronaton. Edward V never sat on the throne. It isn't much different here. Daenerys was queen, she had the authority to imprison Tyrion, she was recognised by Jon even as she was killed, and the Unsullied followed her command. She was queen no matter how short she ruled. Any argument otherwise is completely unfounded and silly. Evremonde (talk) 17:35, May 20, 2019 (UTC) **I still stand by my arguments. Her full "tenure" as Queen involved giving a single speech, appointing Grey Worm to "Master of War" and then promptly being assassinated without becoming the true Queen. ''At most we are talking about a reign of ~30 minutes here. The only real-life monarch we have with a similar short reign would by "Louis XIX" of France (who reigned for 20 minutes) who is rightfully disputed as a legitimate monarch by historians. The "first" Targaryen ruling Queen, Rhaenyra, reigned for six months and remains unrecognized by Westerosi historians. The coronation is an important part of becoming the legitimate monarch, as is sitting on the Iron Throne. Pelledrine (talk) 17:46, May 20, 2019 (UTC) ***Even if she would died one minute after the falling of the city, she was queen of the Seven Kingdoms. You rejected one of your own argument. Rhaenyra sat on the Iron Throne during six months and had a ceremony of coronation in Dragonstone, but she is not considered queen in-universe as a consequence of a political consens. In the series nobody openly disputed her possition during her life and nobody has said "she was not queen" and her designation of Gendry as a Lord of Storm's End was respected (and there wasn't another king to confirm it out of camera).--Mortimercio (talk) 18:03, May 20, 2019 (UTC) Technically the Northmen are rebels. The Dothraki and Unsullied are her mercenaries, not subjects of the Seven Kingdoms. Tyrion and Jon were and they both opposed her. No other subject was seen supporting her. Ythlev (talk) 17:40, May 20, 2019 (UTC) * By that logic, Henry VII's usurpation of the throne from Richard III would be deemed illegitimate. Wales was a part of England, yet they had mainly flocked to Henry's banner, supporting him alongside a high number of French and Breton mercenaries. Henry defeated Richard at Bosworth (in which Richard died). Just because you have mercenaries does not make you an illegitimate monarch. I honestly, honestly don't know where these unfounded suppositions are coming from. Evremonde (talk) 17:44, May 20, 2019 (UTC) **Usurpation is theoretically always illegitimate, it's just that it can be justified later since the usurper is now the king and can declare it legitimate. I don't see the point in applying these examples from English history here, this is a fantasy universe that doesn't necessarily obey the same rules as the actual medieval English monarchy. Pelledrine (talk) 17:48, May 20, 2019 (UTC) **Exactly. We can list them based on significance to the show, which for her is not very much. Ythlev (talk) 17:56, May 20, 2019 (UTC) * :Wow you sure feel strongly about a TV show lol. Ythlev (talk) 17:46, May 20, 2019 (UTC) ::: Tyrion didn't oppose her till he was confronted with releasing Jaime, which he did so Cersei surrendered and fled. Jon was still loyal to Daenerys but the imprisoned Tyrion and later her own words, made him assassinate her. MatthewOne (talk) 00:09, May 21, 2019 (UTC) Yes. She controlled the capital of the kingdom (a condition that in the book and in the series is used in order to difference between a king and a claimant). She was recognised formally by Dorne, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, the Valley and the North (yes, Sansa was conspiring against her but there was no open rebellion against Jon's decission) and the Reach and the Trident didn't oppose to her. Gendry has a sit in the Council in spite of the fact that his high title was a personal decission of Daenerys. If she was not the queen, her designations are invalid, so why a bastard blacksmith is sitting side by side with the most great lords of the kingdom?--Mortimercio (talk) 17:46, May 20, 2019 (UTC) Yes - for what it's worth, whether she was queen for an hour or queen for a day, she was still the queen. That is the point of her arc imo - she got the throne, but aquiring it (and the manner in which she did so) is what lead to her death. The duration is not as important, in my mind, as the fact she achieved her goal but died doing so. The tragic futility of the pursuit of absolute power seems to be the thrust of the story, and she exemplified that. HighComs (talk) 17:55, May 20, 2019 (UTC) Let me recap. If we're going with legitimacy then Jon is King and we should not list any Baratheons or Cercei. The reason we do is we recognise de facto rule. If the de facto queen was Cercei, then Daenerys, Dorne, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, the Valley and the North were all rebel forces in a civil war. The question is after they won, is Daenerys automatically queen? This is then a question of what is considered de facto rule. Personally I don't consider wielding an army enough to be considered ruling. You need to have a court, collect taxes, enforce laws, and rule not just soldiers but also civilians. Ythlev (talk) 18:09, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *Yes, Daenerys is automatically queen. Robert was not considered king until the capital city was conquered and Aerys II was dead. If he would be fatal wounded and died one day after this, Stannis would have been the new king as his nearest relative. In this case, Jon was the murderer and there was not any other Targaryen so the noblemen created a new system but the designation of Gendry was respected even before the change.--Mortimercio (talk) 18:18, May 20, 2019 (UTC) *Yes robert is considered king not by bloodline but by power. But we list Robert because he actually ran the Seven Kingdoms, with a small council and visible relations with the lords etc. We don't see any of that with Daenerys, only commanding an army. Ythlev (talk) 18:31, May 20, 2019 (UTC) I don't have time to discuss this any more but I'd just like to point out that recognizing Daenerys is a bit absurd. The main points used here seem to be that 1) she possessed the capital and 2) her legitimization of Gendry was not questioned later. As for 1''', many monarchs in history have possessed the capitals of their respective countries without being seen as legitimate (see many of the Western Roman Emperors, e.g. Eugenius, Johannes). As for '''2, why would anyone question Gendry at this point? Jon Snow was proclaimed King in the North ''despite being a bastard and Gendry is the last surviving member of the lineage of House Baratheon (and by extension House Durrandon). You guys do whatever you want, the point of Dany's arc was clearly that she became mad and paid the price by not achieving her goal of becoming Queen. Pelledrine (talk) 18:23, May 20, 2019 (UTC) Absurd is pretending that Daenerys was not queen even if her reign was extremely short. ''many monarchs in history have possessed the capitals Maybe, but in Westeros the Robert's first day as king was the day when the capital fell and Aerys II was dead. Or using another words, Aerys II was considered king until he lost the capital (that explains why Viserys III was not considered king in spite of the fact he was in Dragonstone and the army of the Reach and Dorne didn't surrend to Robert until some days later, so the war was not over). Jon Snow was proclaimed King in the North despite being a bastard and Gendry is the last surviving member of the lineage of House Baratheon And what's the point? Jon was proclaimed king by the noblemen as a recognition of his bravery and moreover he was the beloved Ned's bastard. Gendry is a blacksmith, son of a whore, and nobody in the nobility knows him but his designation is respected.--Mortimercio (talk) 18:44, May 20, 2019 (UTC) Revisiting "the Rhoynar..." again... I think it's time we officially drop the Rhoynar out of the title of this article. I don't think it needs to be removed entirely from the page given that it has been used onscreen before (apparently as an easter egg, though). But given that the last known king, Bran, was addressed as the "King of the Andals and the First Men" in the series finale, I think this seals the deal. Reddyredcp (talk) 15:18, May 21, 2019 (UTC)